Segment of an interview with Kamau Franklin

I had asked him about the Bandele v. City of New York [A case of two Copwatch activists with the Malcolm X Grassroots movement who were harassed and detained by the police] and the police reaction. The conversation begins with Franklin talking about going to the arraignment of the Copwatchers the same night they were detained.

Kamau Franklin:(Talking about Case)

19:34- When I went there that night I've never been treated so well as a lawyer in my life. I had court officers coming up to me, ushering me through. "Are you guys ready, do you want to see your clients" And why was that? We had about 300 people in the audience, waiting for our guys to get arraigned. Not only from the M.X.G.R.M., but several different organizations, individuals from the community, politicians that we work with, who were all there in the audience. To be honest, the place was shook. The officers were shook. After the arraignment, our guys were released on their own recognizance. The audience broke out in cheers. The judge couldn't stop them from doing that. It took us 15 minutes to clear that court room-... people cheering the fact we took that action, that we continue to do to this day, this Copwatch. And when this arrest took place, people came out and responded, because they said "That could be me next" That could be us next, We're going to do a Copwatch next. So we have to make sure we have a response in place for that. So, post-that we filed a lawsuit. The C.C.R. has been a part of that lawsuit. Other attorneys have been working on that lawsuit. We fully expect the city to capitulate, to settle this case. We are fully prepared to take it to trial. But we know the city doesn't want to because they know that we have enough evidence based on the video tape, taped by the Copwatchers...

ME: stepping back a minute – what are the conditions in the community that lead you to be involved in Copwatch, and what is the main goal of it?

21:48 The main goal of Copwatch- is to prevent and to document human rights abuses by the police on individuals in the community. This is something we didn't start in the MXGRM. This is a history that goes back to the panthers in the 60s in California when they started the Copwatch. At that point they did it with guns, and not with cameras- and actually was legal to do it with guns in California at that particular point in time. So we inherited that as a movement strategy piece. That the role of our organization is to go out and help protect our community, let our community know what minimal rights we do have, but what those rights are, when stopped and confronted by the police. So, we want to make sure our community is protected in some way and that we go out there and let the police know that the conditions in the community, which we will talk about shortly. Are such that we need a Copwatch because we can't depend on the police to watch us, because we think the police are crooked , and we think the police are racist. And the information we have in terms of conditions of the street bear that out. Over the last 3 years alone, when documentation has been taken of whats happening in the street, the police have stopped over 1.5 million people over the last 3 years alone- documented stops by the police.

Q: Is this in NYC?
23:07
KF: In NYC alone, 1.5 million people. 90% have been black and Latino. Also, 90% of those don't end up in arrest or violations. Which means, the police don't have whats needed- whats called reasonable suspicion to stop somebody and start questioning them because they think a crime is taking place. So 90% of the time they are wrong. 90% of the time they are stopping people and what we think- harassing them, sometimes falsely arresting them, sometimes brutalizing them. These are the conditions which are documented. And we know these stats go back way before, but finally based on a lawsuit which was filed here at the CCR, some of those stats. Are now public, that we did;t have before. Thats very important to let people know that its not that we think theres a few rotten apples. No it goes way further than rotten apples.[24:00].. over 90% of the arrests are based on no evidence whats so ever and 90% of the arrests are on black and Latino people. And the last point that is really important is that these stops are police initiated stops. These stops are not that happened because someone said a crime took place or there's a call-in and the police are coming out. These are police initiated stops, so these are the cops themselves deciding we're going to stop you. We think the reason they want to stop folks is that they want to show whose in control, who's the bully on the block, who's the biggest gang on the block. That they are the ones who control the neighborhood and the community. And they don't care IN order to stop 1 person- maybe one from having a gnu. They will stop 100 people. They are happy because they got 1 gun off the street but they had to stop 1.5 million people.

25:00 What about all the other people who didn't have guns, who got harassed arrested, maybe punched, kicked, falsely accused of crimes, now have to pay money or go to court. These folks had to have their lives traumatic experiences.. when you know or feel like... you've done nothing wrong.

ME Q: 25:19 There has been a series of high-profile cases: Sean Bell, Amidu Dialo, Abner Lioma, the list goes on.. Are the police immune from accountability?

KF: Yes, Yes, and Yes. You have a court system that takes a officers word over an average person's word. Even when you have – we looked at LA right? Even when you had video-taped evidence of someone getting beat down, as in the Rodney King case, the police officers still got acquitted.

Here in the Sean Bell case – you had [26:13] evidence that they didn't have a gun, they didn't have any weapons in the car, but the police shot at them over 40 times killing him and no one gets convicted. So, the judges give the police the benefit of the doubt. The Politicians gave the police the benefit of the doubt, the prosecutorial system gives the police the benefit of the doubt.

Remember if it wasn't for the marches and demonstrations no one would have been indicted for this case. So, there's no doubt the corrupt criminal justice system that protects the police at the expense of the people in the community. That has been the case since the creation of the United States. Of America up until now. There has been changes at the borders – but if you shoot a black man, you can construct any story, that will do, they'll get you out." He moved fast, he looked at me wrong, he ran, I was scared", you think of the excuse, the court will validate it. That sounds good to me..